U. phantasticus aggression

[dravenxavier]

Alright, so here's the scenario. The company I work at was ordering in a pair of phantasticus to sell. So, feeling the itch to fill another empty tank, I tell them to order a second pair in for me. They came in yesterday, and as luck would have it, instead of 2 pairs, they sent 4 males (this, even though the sexes were labeled right on the deli containers they were in). Since two were already reserved for me, I took the two best looking males. However, the catch is that I really only intended (and consequentially had the supplies) to set up one 20H. Are males known to be quite aggressive with one another? If so, I'm sure I can shift some stuff around and free up two 10 gallons, but I'd really rather not. Opinions?

[Salzy]

I've read some conflicting information about this before. Before I got my first pair of phants I did a bunch of reading and some people said that they could be housed in groups with more than one male and there weren't any issues. I've only had the one male, so I don't know from experience, but I'd imagine that if you had a large enough enclosure...say a 45 gallon for a 2.3 or 2.4, I would think they would be just fine. I wouldn't keep two males in a 10 gallon alone or something like that.

If nothing else, you can easily separate them in your 20H with a small sheet of plexiglass or something.

[ominously]

I keep 3.2 in a 24x18x24 Exo and haven't yet noticed any aggression with between any of them - lots of plants, lots of branches, lots of plaes to go, and they all seem to sleep on each other, around each other, or pretty much anywhere. It's hit and miss - sometimes they fight even in a big enclosure, but that's what to keep an eye on. If you search through the old uroplatus threads for some by Andrew, Umop_Asidin, Rey, or CalFireCap there is probably some more information on it.

20H might be enough room for 2 males given ample hiding places and resources - I would have the two 10s ready just in case though.

[calfirecap]

Your 20 gallon high should be just fine for size. I'm currently keeping 2.1 U. phantasticus together and I have seen no signs of aggression. In fact they often times sleep in one bundle of geckos despite plenty of other places to hide. They are in an Exoterra 12 x 12 x 18 planted vivaria and have been housed together for about two months now. The two males are WC which I bought to add some new blood lines. They were purchased as 'long term captives' along with what was claimed to be a CB female, but oddly enough it was the supposedly c.B. female that died during quarantine. According to the seller the two males had been deparacitized, but when I examined a fecal smear myself I found massive quantities of protozoans. Unfortunately this was after I added a proven CB female. Anyway the point is, these WC phants are housed together and doing fine. I've also got 5 C.B. juvie males in the same enclosure and they are also doing fine, but they all sleep in different locations.

I would have been hesitant to even try keeping two males together if it wasn't for something mentioned in 'Leaf-tailed Geckos The Genus Uroplatus' by Sascha Svatek and Susanna Van Duin (p 71) about this not being a problem, and as far as I can tell, it's OK.

Again, the bottom line is I think you should be fine.

Lawrence

[umop_apisdn]

well, once again im the only one who can come across and say that aggression is definitely a possibility, but never a guarantee. there was a point where i had 20-something phantasticus in several groups of varying sizes. i have at least one photo clearly showing aggression from one of my "dominant" males.

i can say that i never noticed any aggression out of any of my "dominant" males until each had spent at least a year in captivity. so, for a short term fix, i would be willing to assume that your animals would be safe with one another. in the absence of females, perhaps they'll never show aggression towards one another. now that i think of it, ill list some of the possible factors that came into play in the aggression i witnessed on more than one occasion.

1) more than 1 male per enclosure (this is a given)
2) females present in the enclosure
3) possible breeding females in the enclosure
4) "dominant" males established in captivity for at least a year, upwards of 2-3 years

and last of all, i can say that my most aggressive male was (perhaps coincidentally) my all-time best breeder. i only sold him because a price was offered that i dont think anyone could refuse, but i still regret selling him to this day. furthermore, the buyer disappeared from all the forums he had become so active on, so i have no idea what became of him.

anyway, here is my pic to illustrate my point that indeed aggression does exist within the species.

ill just mention that the bottom male is actually the agressor, even though the defensive male has the better hold. you can see scarred toes from repeated fighting on the aggressive male.

[Kung fu LIZARD]

Awesome pic! Do they normally like to sleep like that? Hanging by one leg!

[umop_apisdn]

it's not a sleeping picture. however, yes, you will occasionally catch phantasticus sleeping while hanging from one leg.

and i forgot this the first time around. i just gotta give you a hard time, mike, for butchering my screen name. i had to make this to help people figure it out/remember it.






BAH! i need to get back on topic. as far as your new arrivals, the "proper" way to deal with new arrivals would be to set up separate quarantines for each individual, regardless of sex. at this point, they've already been exposed to one another, and i cant guarantee your results will be better or worse or the same if you house them separately. but for the purpose of aggression, i would say your situation falls into low risk at the moment.

[ominously]

I was just gonna go with Mike but I didn't know if they'd know who to ask Sorry for the hack job too - fast typing without double checking, and I'm quite glad you finally did that because in truth I've spent the better part of my membership trying to figure out exactly what that meant (and I'm usually great at puzzles and patterns - I guess I one tracked my mind into thinking some latin name related to a particualr species ).

Anyhow - to the OP, I wanted to agree with Mike Martin about the occasional aggression. I didn't mean to imply or sound as though it never occurs - I was trying to illustrate that they can coexist but there is the possibility and to be prepared for it. I haven't witnessed it as yet myself in the group I keep and hopefully won't even with an excess male and two potential mates. The thing I did makes sure of when I chose my group though was that they were all the same size - that's not to say different sized animals will fight per se, but I think it reduces a bit of the possibility.

Just be watchful for any signs and ready for any housing changes you may need to make.

P.S> my favorite phant sleeping position is the roadkill X on a wall

[Scott F]

I have had many instances of male/male aggression displayed in various leaf tail species. It all comes down to the indivual animals. And many times even if there is no combat, the stress of constant intimidation alone is enough to make some weaker animals to go downhill pretty fast in my opinion.

Scott Filimonow

[Andrew Gilpin]

We've definitely experienced male to male aggression. We had 3.2 housed in a 40 gallon aquarium set up on end with a ficus tree in it, and lost one tail on a male, and had very obvious bite marks on all of them, including an interesting bruised leg that became somewhat inflamed and took nearly a year to heal completely.

Currently we're keeping 2 females in a 50 gallon aquarium, and introduce the males for a couple of weeks at a time every month or so. When the males are not in with the females, they are housed individually in 10 gallon aquariums. This has been the best technique for us with getting them to breed.