Leachianus leachianus and henkeli locals all the same ?

[Luc]

I just had an interesting discussion with Tariq and Marlies(dutch gecko workgroup) on geckosunlimited.com forum. I am very much against mixing the different leachianus locals and they are not because of bauers recent work. They say all leachianus are the same so there is no problem with mixing and I think it would be very bad to lose the local specific animals in captivity. What do others think about this ? Thanks for your input.

[genevieve]

An interesting and important question that I raised to a friend of mine a while back. My opinion is that we should try and keep the different locales "pure" for as long as possible before inbreeding depression is seen. There are visible differences in animals from different locales, breeds you could say. Just as I would not cross my purebred Poodle with a street mutt even though they are genetically the same, I would not want to cross my Nuu Ami with my Bayonnaise leachianus just because their DNA looks the same in the lab.

Once things are crossed you can never go back.

Genevieve

[Terri]

Originally Posted by genevieve

Once things are crossed you can never go back.
Genevieve

AMEN!
I am deliberately buying pure locale unrelated (as much as is possible)pairs to make a little island of them here in the Midwest against the tragic possibility that some malady could sweep captive populations in other areas. Hopefully nothing like that will ever happen, but I'm fairly isolated here in the formerly frozen North just in case.

[rhacattacktylus]

I know you guys won't like this but I say cross away, leachies are leachies and you can always keep pure locales pure. But I think crossing certain locales will make for some interesting looking geckos.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by rhacattacktylus

I know you guys won't like this but I say cross away, leachies are leachies and you can always keep pure locales pure. But I think crossing certain locales will make for some interesting looking geckos.

This is a good example of the conflicting school of thought that exists in herpetoculture today: old school versus contemporary. This is not an indictment against you, rhacattacktylus, I'm only pointing out a well known fact.

I concur with Luc, genevieve, and Terri. The locales should be kept pure for as long as possible.

Personally I don't own leachianus but plan to in the future. When I do I would like for the locale specific animal to be pure, not mixed with another locale for the sake of looks. As long as I know that there are people who believe the same this will be possible.

[Andrew Gilpin]

While I think it would be nice to keep localities specific, I don't think it is in the best interest of the longevity of these animals in captivity. Think about it, how many people do you hear talk about how they want different bloodlines for crested geckos? With cresteds, there were somewhere around 100 original geckos to start with. Now look at leachies, I don't have a specific number for how many of each local there were collected, but I know for certain several were only 1 or 2 pairs! You can't keep genetic diversity going for very long with only two pairs of animals. You're bound to run into problems sometime. Just look at Philippe's current ad on Kingsnake,

Island I (Duu Ana) leachianus come from an island smaller than a football field. When bred to each other they are very poor producers but the crosses have outbreeding vigor and can lay 8-10 eggs a year.

Another example of trying to work with a very limited bloodline, would be Tim Tytle's mainland chahoua line. Underbites, smaller animals, bugged out eyes, some neurological problems. It's gotta go one way or the other, would you rather have inferior animals that can no longer produce viable or vigorous offspring, or would you rather have healthy, robust animals that can produce exactly as Philippe stated?

[Allen Repashy]

Originally Posted by Peter K

The locales should be kept pure for as long as possible.

As Andrew points out..... Some of the localities have already passed the "long as possible" point of no return.

Allen

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Allen Repashy

As Andrew points out..... Some of the localities have already passed the "long as possible" point of no return.
Allen

I apologize for my lack of knowledge in this matter. I didn't realize that the problem was this severe.

Are there any loopholes in CITES or New Caledonia laws where it would be possible to futher collect locale specific animals which could then be given to the experienced breeders in Europe and the US to be used infuse fresh genetics in the existing lines? Would this be a viable option to the problem?
Or is this being done already?

[Luc]

Thanks for all the answerw.I don't know much about genetics but I have been told by people that are working with australian geckos that inbreeding can work good for many generations as long as you have a good bloodline, is this true ?
What are the other locals that suffer from inbreeding besides isle I ?

[Andrew Gilpin]

I also wanted to just post the thread so others can view what is happening on G.U.
http://www.geckosunlimited.com/forum...pic.php?t=9740
I think this is an important topic, and that people can get as much information about it as possible. I would love to hear more peoples opinions on the subject, especially which localities have to worry the least about keeping the lines pure because more animals were brought into captivity from those locations. ( Maybe a certain someone here could persuade Philippe, or Frank to chime in? )

Luc, I also want to say that I completely understand where you're coming from on your beliefs, and the others who have sided with you. I would also like to say that many of the times when people breed different R. leachianus localities together it does seem like they do it just because they have those certain locales available to them and that it is for 'easy money'. However, there are certain people who do it intentionally, knowing why they're doing it, and for a good reason.

I do not personally keep R. leachianus currently, and am not up to date with which localities have the least number of captive individuals available for the gene pool. I just know that some are very limited, and there's no way around crossing the different locales if you intend to keep any of the very limited locality specific animals genes available. ( that actually made sense while I was typing it, let me know if you're confused, haha )