Crested gecko home fecal sampling?

[Salzy]

After being part of this community for quite a long time, I've seen "fecal testing" come up very often as a suggestion when an owner finds a health problem with their gecko. This comes up probably over 90% of the time and is just not that easy for some people to get done. It can be costly and not a readily accessible or efficient option for some folks.

I was curious to know if there is any way to perform your own tests on fecal samples from crested geckos (or any other gecko for that matter). I don't have a reptile vet in my area now, so if any problems arise I wish I could figure them out myself. I am aware that any vet can perform a fecal test however and if that is the best way to go, so be it.

If I had my own equipment, what could I be looking for in case I start having any concerns dealing with my gecko's health? Is there any way to do this sort of thing from home, or a biology lab if one is available to me? Is it even feasible to do so?

This is mostly directed at those who have a heavy background in biology, veterinary medicine, or some other type of life science. Hopefully Dr. Alan or others can pipe in here and give some advice.

[GTlover]

Well, I'm sure if you had your own microscope you could probably look for internal parasites, worms, mites, etc. There are a lot of pictures on the internet that could be used to identify anything. I honestly don't have a herp vet, so I don't know how much it costs, but I bet if you had a 200-400x microscope, which costs in the ballpark of 200-$400(some supplies usually included), you could maybe save some money if you have a large collection of reptiles. You would still probably need a herp vet though, to prescribe medications, if you do happen find anything. This isn't coming from a vet or biologist, but it may be worth considering. And also, microscopes can be a lot of fun if you enjoy looking at micro life.

[Dr Alan]

After being part of this community for quite a long time, I've seen "fecal testing" come up very often as a suggestion when an owner finds a health problem with their gecko. This comes up probably over 90% of the time and is just not that easy for some people to get done. It can be costly and not a readily accessible or efficient option for some folks.

I was curious to know if there is any way to perform your own tests on fecal samples from crested geckos (or any other gecko for that matter). I don't have a reptile vet in my area now, so if any problems arise I wish I could figure them out myself. I am aware that any vet can perform a fecal test however and if that is the best way to go, so be it.

If I had my own equipment, what could I be looking for in case I start having any concerns dealing with my gecko's health? Is there any way to do this sort of thing from home, or a biology lab if one is available to me? Is it even feasible to do so?

This is mostly directed at those who have a heavy background in biology, veterinary medicine, or some other type of life science. Hopefully Dr. Alan or others can pipe in here and give some advice.Short answer to your queries; yes. Longer answer: genereally my technicians defer to my judgement when categorizing lizard fecal specimens and there is most definitely an experiential factor that plays a great parrt in the inerpretation of Rhacodactylus (or any other reptile) fecal analysis. I am not consciously tryiing to discourage you, but I absolutely have some concerns if you're not analzing lizard fecals fairly regularly.The presence of small to moderte numbers of Oxyurid ova can be normal and is not always a signal to treat aggressively. Your query is more complicated then it appears on the surface.

[Salzy]

Oh for sure. I know it isn't an easy thing to answer and I understand your concern. I also know that it's not just as simple as grabbing a microscope and looking at the feces, you have to have an idea of what you are looking for and then know what it is when it's there.

I completely agree that a person should have the experience, but how do you get it without actually doing it, right? The way I'm looking at this is that it shouldn't be completely out of reach for the "average Joe gecko owner" to be able to do this themselves. (especially those who have graduated with Biology or other life science degrees) With more and more practice and research I would hope to be able to figure things out for myself, but I surely would not do any definite diagnosing or treatment on my own if I actually found something.

Hope that makes sense and further explains my intent.

[ominously]

I am not consciously tryiing to discourage you, but I absolutely have some concerns if you're not analzing lizard fecals fairly regularly.The presence of small to moderte numbers of Oxyurid ova can be normal and is not always a signal to treat aggressively.

I have to go with Dr. Alan on this one Kyle - when I first learned fecals for humans you must spend the whole time double checking with the prof going "Is this an egg? Is this an egg?" for about two weeks, and these are people who teach and perform these things all the time. And even then, there are times when they make a judgement call and say, "well, it may be a dehydrated egg or a fragment" and these are samples that are intentionally seeded or collected from known cases.

That's not to say that you can't learn, everyone does, but the second portion of my deferral is Dr Alan's second statement - that you don't want to overtreat based on something that may seem to satisfy statistical data for treatment, but may be in truth a normal situation - the factual basis and theory behind an infestation is as important as the discovery and identification of the parasites you find. Granted giant hookworms and tapeworms are likely not normal findings, as he pointed out, some things are. An extreme example would be high HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin - the stuff pregnancy tests check for) in a patient: normally, she's pregnant, end of story. Or, maybe she or he has a tumor. In a male, no question, but in a female?

Don't be discouraged though - people are surgeons for years without ever having gone to medical school simply because they apply themselves and read and learn and practice. Your microscope though - get a really good quality one because otherwise you're already a foot inthe hole. You will also want to get a hold of some stains for doing O&P's which may not be really easy, but then I've never tried to get them outside a clinical setting. Last, all the pictures in the world will not be enough to provide a good set of examples - try to get some slides (talk to a vet if you can) and draw what you see, repeatedly - repeatedly so you can get the idea or what atypical O&P's can look like too. My drawings always seem to be close at hand if I need to look at anything because something I included for myself as reference may be what makes my determination if I'm stuck (and someone else's opinion). It's not that my drawing may be better, but I know what I drew - I can't be certain that the feature is typical, but at least I know it's in my atypical drawings.
(unless it's a giardia, trichomonas, or pinworm, then no guesses needed thankfully :)) You'll also need the practice because there are a number of things that look very similar - very, very similar, but are very different bugs. It's easy once there are worms and bugs, but eggs suck to identify sometimes, and the treatments may be very different - and usually by the time you see worms and bugs, it's worse to deal with. http://home.austarnet.com.au/wormman/wlimages.htm
These are human ones - check the forms and see what I mean about the similarities and very subtle differences.

I wish you luck though - I will also add that I also take fecals to my vets despite my experience for one reason: that it is their job, and not mine. I may know what I'm looking for, but at the same time, they have to know what they're looking for, if that makes sense.

[Robert]

ominously- what an amazing post!
Salzy- Personally I do not know a whole lot about Gecko's dragons are my strong point (Here to change that)
I do my own fecal's for my dragon's.
At first it was hard because I did not have enough confidence in myself to make a definitive answer.
What I did was I made friends with my Herp Vet.
I told them I was wanting to do my own fecal floats.
I asked my vet if I did 1 and told her what I found would she check the same slide & give me feedback.
I did this 3 or 4 times before i got comfortable with myself enough to treat my own animals.
You need to do a lot of research on how med's effect your particular animal.
You also need a parasite chart to help you identify what your looking at.
With dragons I found that a 10x-40x microscope works well.

Robert

[Salzy]

Thanks for the advice guys. I truly appreciate it.

Mike, great post. Everything you say makes such perfect sense. How long have you been checking things out like that yourself?

I know it will take a lot of time to know what I am doing, so please don't get me wrong on that. In no way did I think that it was going to be simple at all and that I (or anyone) could just jump right into it and know what they are doing. I never had a parasitology class, but I know that there are thousands of little "bugs" that can be good and/or bad. I expect it will take a number of years to get the hang of it, but still need assistance on most things.

If I am sure that I want to go deeper into this, I will probably contact you guys for reference if that is ok.

I just found out that I have a herp vet within about a half-hour drive. I was worried that since my move 2 weeks ago that nobody was around this area. That will be a big help and I may collaborate with them too, if possible.

Thanks again!

[Allen Repashy]

The technology today is pretty amazing, and if someone had a serious enough desire and could afford $500-$1000, there is an option now that I have considered. You would still need a consulting Vet, for the reasons Dr. Alan and others state, but if you did not have a worthy Vet in your area, something like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/40X-1600X-COMPOUND-MICROSCOPE-1-3M-USB-CAMERA-CASE_W0QQitemZ170146530473QQihZ007QQcategoryZ58192 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) is what I am looking at.

If you can learn how to do a fecal float or smear, and focus a lense, you can now make high res images on your PC and post or email them for opinions. You would need to do some research and get reference material on what to look for, but I think that this really could be a great tool for someone with a big collection. There are very few Vets around with lots of herp experience like Dr Alan, and I think that 95% of the keepers out there would get better advice doing something like this and sending it to a real expert.... than taking it to a local vet..... Of course you would have to pay a consulting vet, but I think it would be very worth it to get an opinion from someone who knows reptile parasites.

It is not cheap.... A system like this with supplies and some good reference publications will probably be about a grand once you are done, but think of the information that could be shared.

I wonder what Dr. Alan thinks about this idea........

http://www.amscope.com/images/Picture_4621-a.png

Allen

[Salzy]

Good call on that one Allen. I used a setup like that in college and it worked out extremely well.

The same type of attachments are used by professors to project the images up onto a screen or blank wall for the whole class to see. By saving what you see on the scope, you could also compare other online pics side by side. This would be a great tool to use, so long as you have the money to do so, and a vet on the other end willing to assist you. Sounds like a great possibility in my mind.

[Haroldo]

I think that's actually a great tool. I have a Steindorff Berlin vintage binocular scope and bought a digital scope camera to take pics of slides for reference as well as for second opinions...

[ominously]

Allen that's a great idea too - with todays technology cameras for scopes have finally come WAY down from what they used to be - I think the notebook and internet service may end up being the biggest part of the cost. They even have drop in lenses (fast search for one, no product endorsement, just a random pick http://www.microscopesusa.com/MiniVID.html )

I will have to add that in no way should this replace a vet visit though - without clinical presentation the diagnosis may not fit the picture (the old stand by story - my stomach hurts from eating a grape: I ate a pizza, had two bottles of beer, nachos with chili cheese, chips, smoked a cigar and then ate a grape, then I didn't feel good, so it must have been the grape!)

Also, a good representative number of pictures should be sent for evaluation - not 1000 mind you, but a float scan will need a minimum of 10 good fields (and that's if there is a pretty good infestation) to determine the actual extent of the problem - I would be leary of making a judgement based on anyone's 10 best example slides as people tend to represent as many as they can in one picture, skewing the real distribution. Again, one cluster of staph does not equal severe infection if it is the only cluster in 100 fields, so caution.

I do my own fecal's for my dragon's.
At first it was hard because I did not have enough confidence in myself to make a definitive answer.
What I did was I made friends with my Herp Vet.
I told them I was wanting to do my own fecal floats.
I asked my vet if I did 1 and told her what I found would she check the same slide & give me feedback.
I did this 3 or 4 times before i got comfortable with myself enough to treat my own animals

Well said, and you framed a good reasoning - your animals, a species. Not all bugs should be found in all species - geographical proximity can be a limiting factor, and can also often be a good indicator of what to look for. Beardeds will commonly carry X and Y, whereas a cham may carry Y and Z but not X. I think it's a good idea to familiarize yourself with the geographical diversity of the organisms you're dealing with more than the physical identification of them, which is why I had previously said that there is much theory that preceeds the identification. Malaria for example would not be my first guess for a person born in North America and never travelled, but if they had been born in Africa...

Mike, great post. Everything you say makes such perfect sense. How long have you been checking things out like that yourself?

No problem - I learned immunology and parasitology in school so about 8 or nine years ago now, and as for how often I use those skills, I suppose not as much as when I did microbiology 2 years ago, but still enough to know what to look for with some history. At the end of my day though it is the Pathologist that makes the call and not me, so it helps to always have the over the shoulder check. Blood related films I look at every day, tissues maybe once or twice a week, and urines, nearly daily. fascinating stuff - I'm a scientist scientist - you know: mix stuff in flasks, look at microscopes, dissect things to see how they work. It's always been something I liked to do.

I never had a parasitology class

Why not take one or even just audit the class and take notes?

[Robert]

Well said, and you framed a good reasoning - your animals, a species. Not all bugs should be found in all species - geographical proximity can be a limiting factor, and can also often be a good indicator of what to look for. Beardeds will commonly carry X and Y, whereas a cham may carry Y and Z but not X. I think it's a good idea to familiarize yourself with the geographical diversity of the organisms you're dealing with more than the physical identification of them, which is why I had previously said that there is much theory that preceeds the identification. Malaria for example would not be my first guess for a person born in North America and never travelled, but if they had been born in Africa...

Thank you
I could not agree with you more.
There is a major difference between dragons & cham's
There is so much research that needs to be done on the particular species before even attempting this.
You have to have a full understanding on how there body works & what effects them when treating the species.

When I do a float for my dragon I do not take 1 or 2 slides before diagnosing the problem.
I look at 10-20 different slides documenting and making sure I have the right diagnosis.
Honestly when you have a problem of a grander proportion like a disease, you need to look at hundreds if not thousands of fields but most of us do not have that time. (I do not) So we bring it to some one who has the time, power, & knowledge to diagnose whats happening.

Thank you ominously for all you insight.

Robert

[Salzy]

I would sit in on a parasitology class but I moved, and the college that I live near now has nothing remotely close to that. The college I graduated from had parasitology but it wasn't required for me, but it was for Captive Wildlife minors. Wish I would have taken it anyway. I'm interested in that stuff. Just didn't have the time or desire to when I was there because it was a 5 credit course that required 12 hours of class a week plus the time outside of class to study and do the work. Not worth it for me at the time.