Abronia, Abronia, where for art thou, Abronia?

[Smashtoad]

I have been looking into Abronia and there are several species listed for the genus (like 12 or so...maybe more). They are an awesome anguid, so I assume they would be rather hardy...why do I like NEVER see them for sale? They seem like they would make a great vivarium lizard. Solid captive info is curiously absent from your basic Google search.

Allen, JayS, Danscastle (You may be the closest geographically), Mike, Brian....anyone! What gives? They are Central American...why would collection be an issue for these guys? Obviously something about them is inconvenient...maybe they live real high in trees or something...but hey, that didn't keep us from bringing coconuts to the market!

Thanks in advance for all insight.

[danscantle]

hey man,

my understanding is the most of the species come from the mexican highlands, and mexico is a big no no for exportation. the mountain forests where they live might be difficult to access. additionally, they are arboreal and cryptically colored. i believe one species (A. taeniata?) lives in the nooks and crannies of epiphytic bromeliads and lizards from those microhabitats are notoriously difficult to collect (some Sphaerodactylus species were presumed extinct until a herpetologist set rodent glue traps around bromeliads and stuck'em). if they do wander into exportable ranges i suspect they are hard to detect. there are quite a few arboreal lizards from central/south america (including several anguids) that are only known from a few specimens. presumably these animals live way up in the trees, and are therefore nearly impossible to observe or collect. the case is similar for many geckos too - Lupersaurus from SE Asia is one of the most poorly sampled groups. L. iskanderi is only known from a specimen collected in the middle of a stream the morning after a thunderstorm. Lupersaurus is the sister group to Ptychozoon (the flying geckos) and looks identical to them except they lack the "wings" down the side. Clearly a canopy dweller blown out of the tree by the storm yet one of the reviewers for L. iskanderi's description asked the author "How can you rule out the possibility that this an aquatic gecko?" Haha.

still, i can recall a time when i was 14 or 15yrs old when they were everywhere, along with xenosaurus. freaking everywhere - all over kingsnake, in the back of Reptiles, at Orlando. i wonder what happened to them. i heard a number of them were sent oversees to Japan, but i bet most people really didn't know how to keep them. i also seem to remember hearing something about confiscations, but i was so young and otherwise not interested in them i can't really remember. i do have a gut feeling there are still quite few around, in the collections of serious private individuals or even as side projects for some of the companies.

so while getting Abronia seems unlikely at the moment, their sister genus - Mesaspis - is imported in large numbers. i actually have a few M. moreletti juveniles myself right now. very interesting and entertaining lizards, with feeding habits similar to both snakes and "iguanian lizards" - they hunt by visual and olfaction cues. unfortunately, just not as colorful as Abronia.

[Brian]

Hey Dan did you collect those yourself with localities or are they pet trade?

I thought Genus Abronia had some protection too, or am I confused on that? I even heard the genus was CITES protected at one point, but never followed up. Was my leg being pulled?

In another post here I do remember someone saying one person here has them.

One more thing for Dan. Is there a key avialable from somewhere for the genus Mesaspis?

[JayS]

The problem is Mexicos laws.Abronia are not that easy to keep long term.I have some and have a good friend with multiple species.There will be some available soon,but they will be pricey.Most come from the cloud forests and people keep them too hot.I will be collecting some arboreal vipers from the same region hopefully as I will probably go on the next trip.

[Smashtoad]

I knew you guys would knock this out of the park...what a forum...

Thanks

[JayS]

Actually my friend is breeding his quite well and just moved to Tennessee

[Allen Repashy]

I was actually the one who was producing good numbers of Abronia graminea in the very early nineties. I had a group of around 50 adults. Had them outdoors in coastal La Jolla California where we had a lot of coastal fog and mild temps. I had a misting system on large screen cages with big ficus and lots of loose sphagnum moss (like a foot deep) that was always wet. They did great and for three years, I produced over a hundred neonates (they are livebearers) a year for about three years..

Until one day the ants came.... :( Killed all the neonates (around 50) and forty adults in a matter of hours.... still rates as one of the worst days of my life.... I was so pissed I sold the rest of the adults, whch was a big mistake.

It was also frustrating because 90% of the juveniles I sold were killed within a few months by people keeping them too hot and dry.... I would tell them how to do it, but they didn't listen.

Allen

[danscantle]

hey brian -

i did not collect them. i picked them up at an expo. i'm not aware of a key to the genus, but i don't really dabble with Anguidae. there are some pubs on them though. you guys have web of science at berkeley?

[Palex134]

Abronia Graminea are so awesome! they are my favorite reptile hands down! I have talked to a few breeders, but they are few and far between. I have heard they are not too hardy, and do not do too well.

Alan do you have any more pictures of them?

I have only seen abronia available once, 1.1 89ers. They were awesome. Too bad not much info is available on them.

[Andrew Gilpin]

Side bar.... how do people miss spell someone's name when it's listed right in their user name?
Allen, that really sucks that yours got attacked by Ants, sort of reminds me of a story that I heard about some shinosaurus..... :( :(

[Palex134]

Allen*
Sorry Andrew

[Smashtoad]

Wow...sorry to make you rehash one of the worst days of your life, Allen. That had to freakin suck...MAN WHAT A FORUM! I've been occasionally wondering since like 1989 why this amazing prehensile-tailed alligator lizard is rarely seen in the trade and all it took was one post to this forum to get the skinny...

If it's any consolation, Allen (and I know it's not, but I'm gonna try anyway)...In my senior year of High School, a childhood friend I hadn't seen in six years once snuck up behind me at a track meet and dropped a 12lb shot put in my track shorts. My loose track shorts barely moved, but one side of my tidy whities caught the thing and was pulled below my knee. There were chicks everywhere...true story.

[Brian]

hey brian -

i did not collect them. i picked them up at an expo. i'm not aware of a key to the genus, but i don't really dabble with Anguidae. there are some pubs on them though. you guys have web of science at berkeley?

Yep we have it. I actually was just wondering because how people ID the Central American ones. I haven't really done any lit searches on stuff south of North Mexico on anguidae. I'll just look it up one day I guess.


Anyone care to humor me and tell me what the price on Abronia typically are?

[Palex134]

I saw 1.1 for 2000, and for some species not graminea, I have seen 1000 each as hatchlings from a breeder.

[Mark Baumann]

Unfortunately the gentleman responsible for the influx of Abronia to this country from Mexico ended up doing some time in a Mexican prison. As stated earlier most people who had them lost them because of poor husbandry. I do know that a large portion of the available neonates ended up in Japan. How they did there I don't know and herps are rarely exported out of Japan.

[Palex134]

I have heard that some abronia did infact end up in Europe and Asia.

[mfeit]

Allen, I vaguely remember a few being available in the early "90's. If I remember correctly they were pretty spendy even then. I think Danscant is pretty young, so I'm not sure he is remembering when you had them. I don't recall seeing many abronia at all in the past ten or so years. I'm glad to hear they may make an appearance in the hobby again,

AR, ants, fires, earthquakes, raccon, holy cow dude. You should consider moving to Nebraska. The only destructive forces we have here are tornados, and Republicans.

[Geoff Cunningham]

Back in the 90's I had a friend that used to go down to Mexico and collect them. He would tell me how he could only find one a day so also hired the locals to find them. In order to locate the Abronia they would pull down Bromeliads which is something I do not condone. He said that he would get enough in a couple weeks to bring back 100 of them. Also he only paid 5 dollars each for them. Its a shame none of them are around today and no breeding programs exist. What a waste.

Some pics I shot of Johns Abronia.

[Palex134]

wow amazing shots! That is very sad that so few exist today.

[den23]

Just wanted to say Abronia are my favorite lizards, hopefully soon they will be more available. They are alittle hardier than they are given credit for. They also have incredible personalities.
Den23

[Palex134]

ya I know how much you love them!