Proven Locale/Locale specific???

[escargo85]

As discussed in past threads. Our Keeper/breeder, hobby/passion, is greatly pivotal on trust and word of mouth. Myself and others have heard some very extensive stories of the N.C. native exporting locale specific animals via airways. I, myself am amazed by every phenotype/locale of all said "proven" Leachie's. They are ALL magnificent creatures.... Every specimen is intrepid!

That being said, Im seeking "knowledge/enlightenment" on how to find legit proof aside from taking a trip to the motherland myself. We dont have the mechanical luxury of a V.I.N. in our ventures. This topic HAS to go further than reputation. NO disrespect to the Godfathers of this great privilege. (My Personal Mentors)
Is there a way for a small scale breeder to back up what he breeds?

salutations

[godzillizard]

IMO&E, all we can do is be honest. If we choose to trust the folks we buy our breeders from, then by proxy, we're forced to trust everyone's word/story. From the person who actually field collected the geckos, to the exporters/importers, to the person/people who eventually acquire, care for and hopefully breed them. All we can do is relay the stories that have been told and retold, as sincerely/honestly as possible, until we eventually build a reputation of our own.

Or you can exclusively buy animals with paperwork...

[aschnell]

Or you can exclusively buy animals with paperwork...

Too bad none exist (to the best of my knowledge anyway) :(

[aschnell]

As discussed in past threads. Our Keeper/breeder, hobby/passion, is greatly pivotal on trust and word of mouth. Myself and others have heard some very extensive stories of the N.C. native exporting locale specific animals via airways. I, myself am amazed by every phenotype/locale of all said "proven" Leachie's. They are ALL magnificent creatures.... Every specimen is intrepid!

That being said, Im seeking "knowledge/enlightenment" on how to find legit proof aside from taking a trip to the motherland myself. We dont have the mechanical luxury of a V.I.N. in our ventures. This topic HAS to go further than reputation. NO disrespect to the Godfathers of this great privilege. (My Personal Mentors)
Is there a way for a small scale breeder to back up what he breeds?


Good luck, I've been trying to bring up this issue of "proof" in many areas of this hobby, but I just end up offending everyone. I'll let you in on something I've learned so that maybe you won't have to learn the hard way: best thing to do is get to know the person you're buying from and build some sort of trust-based relationship with them, that's all you can do.

I have the exact GPS coordinates for many leachianus collected by scientists over the years, which is great, but we have to remember most leachianus collected for the hobby just weren't collected with any sort of thorough data whatsoever, and that's just how it is. No way to change the past.

The following is a personal spiel of mine on the subject, compromised of mere opinions based on my personal experiences in the hobby. If you disagree with me, that's totally fine and I even encourage that, everyone has their own opinions which are formed by their own experiences, that's part of what makes us individuals. :)

In my experience, there is/are more secrets, smuggling, conspiracies, lying, deception, and misrepresentation in the Leachianus trade than almost any other reptile trade I'm aware of. People form tight bonds with other leachianus breeders, and trust between those relationships is rock solid, but outside of that, people have trust issues, and understandably so. I've lost thousands in purchases on individual animals because of things listed above. In a community that is as secretive and grossly overpriced as this one, it's trust or "no deal" (for most people). The problem lies in the fact that most people don't know the people they're buying from personally, so only a select few people know that the animals that they're buying are indeed what the breeder says it is. Now, if someone were to pay even a normal $3,000 for an adult proven breeder [GT Type A - pure F1 Poindimie] leachianus (which I might add is twice as expensive as our Golden Retriever show dog [not trying to act like I'm better than anyone here, just stating a fact lol]), you would think you could get some sort of paperwork, a family tree of lineage history, or some kind of proof for why the gecko you're getting is worth it basically - but no. I don't know any other hobby or business in which trust is relied on so heavily, and in which records and evidence mattered so little. As an empirical and rational person, I have a hard time coming to terms with that. But in the end I must come to terms with these things, it is how the hobby works, and as I've learned the hard way over the past year or so, applying scientific standards of proof to a non-scientific community just doesn't fly. This doesn't mean that the scientific community is better than the hobbyist community in any way, on the contrary I think that if a community can be maintained on trust alone - the character of that community would be far superior to the character of any community which required proof for every little thing - and I'm a grateful person to be part of a community that is trying to use trust as it's foundation / the most valuable aspect of it's existence.

[pakinjak]

Andrew, this is one of the things that makes leachies so fascinating to me... it's like I'm participating in a really interesting movie...

I've done all I can to be able to provide buyers with info back to NC when they purchase from me in a few years, but even with F2 animals, I wish I could get more details.

Trust is a must have for me in my own business, and I think I'm hard wired to think that's incredibly important. That's why I bought from who I bought from.

I will be really interested to see what the leachie trade (at least pure locales) looks like in 20 years if there is already so much discussion, debate and doubt about the origin of many animals that are only a few generations from the foundation animals.

[Chris L]

Andrew, this is one of the things that makes leachies so fascinating to me... it's like I'm participating in a really interesting movie...

I've done all I can to be able to provide buyers with info back to NC when they purchase from me in a few years, but even with F2 animals, I wish I could get more details.

Trust is a must have for me in my own business, and I think I'm hard wired to think that's incredibly important. That's why I bought from who I bought from.

I will be really interested to see what the leachie trade (at least pure locales) looks like in 20 years if there is already so much discussion, debate and doubt about the origin of many animals that are only a few generations from the foundation animals.

It would be great if their was some sort of serial data base on them kinda like how dogs arer micro chipped.

[that_girl]

It would be great if their was some sort of serial data base on them kinda like how dogs arer micro chipped.

They have tried that, and many people agreed it was a good idea. But when it came down to actually doing it, no one participated.

[godzillizard]

Originally Posted by godzillizard
Or you can exclusively buy animals with paperwork...

Too bad none exist (to the best of my knowledge anyway)

That was my point...we are all forced to trust people if we want to keep and breed leachies. That's why I breed for traits, and overall health before anything else. We must be cognisant of the history of captive leachies; There are very few verifiable "pure" locale R.l.leachianus out there, and it's only been 10 years since the island types were distinguished and collected...and to see what "pure" locales are looking like in captivity in 20 years...without the benefit of natural selection and/or 'fresh' blood...that's an image I'd rather not imagine (hopefully nothing like the captive leopard gecko world). Yet for some reason; I still keep and breed a few locale specific pair!?! (I 'justify' it by breeding Philipe's line to Frank's line) I just love those bug-eyed Nuu Ami chunkers :D

I mean no disrespect, I just want people to be realistic here...I recently saw a nice sub-adult male (high pink) mix for sale for $3,000 USD?!?