Fla cracking down on snakes

[tmfleo]

Fla cracking down on snakes

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Friday, February 10, 2006

TALLAHASSEE — Pythons and lizards and anacondas, oh my! That’s the message
Florida wildlife officials and a pair of state lawmakers sent Thursday as
they gathered to launch legislation to put tighter regulations on
bone-crushing reptiles they say are slithering their way across South
Florida.

Two Treasure Coast lawmakers are sponsoring measures to stop pet owners from
dumping giant snakes, lizards and other dangerous non-venomous reptiles into
the Everglades and surrounding areas. The displaced predators are competing
for food with native species.

If approved, the measure would require registration and a $100 fee from
owners of large non-venomous reptiles to help fund education efforts and
amnesty programs. The bill would add Burmese, African rock, reticulated and
amethystine pythons and monitor lizards to the list of reptiles requiring
registration. Officials estimate as many as 5,000 Floridians would be
required to permit their pets.

“Many people are purchasing these (animals) and then finding out when they
are no longer two or three feet long but are now 10 or 12 or 15 feet long
(that they can’t keep them),” said House sponsor Ralph Poppell, R-Vero
Beach.

State law already regulates the possession of venomous reptiles. Poppell’s
measure would expand the scope. If approved by lawmakers, the state Florida
Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission would draw up rules by September.

Despite a few sensational snake stories, state wildlife officials say the
public does not appreciate the scale of the problem, which is getting worse
in remote regions throughout the Everglades and Southwest Florida.

Last year, game officers found 71 adult constrictors in the Everglades,
which they say represents a tiny percentage of the well-camouflaged critters
living in the region.

Most of the animals are purchased as babies and released when they reach
mammoth proportions.

“We have a great climate here, we’re surrounded by water and have many
ports,” said Marianne Gengenbach, representing The Nature Conservancy. “As
such we are uniquely vulnerable here in Florida to evasive species and their
ability to not only survive but thrive in this state but wreak havoc.”

The reptilian round-up is part of a larger initiative to revamp state laws
regulating all kinds of big and often dangerous animals that are kept as
pets.

Last updated in 1994, laws regulating the possession of lions and tigers and
bears will be re-written in the next few years to better protect the general
public and the animals themselves.

[JayS]

I think this is a great idea in fact it is because of Floridas very open freedoms that I wish I could live there.I just hate the climate.Good for Florida.I wish the rest of the states in this union would follow suit.For those who don't know Florida is probably the state that has the most freedoms when it comes to keeping any pets.

[umop_apisdn]

Yea, it's sad how people take advantage of it. I've been down to the glades a few times in the past year and a half, and my group found 3 different burmese pythons. its pretty sad that such a beautiful place could get ravaged because of lazy and irresponsible pet owners.

at the same time, i gotta say i get a kick out of seeing phelsumas in the keys.

and just think the horror of finding cobras in your backyard. i know ive heard from old school florida herpers that at one point you could find them around the miami airport.

[myiarchus]

I also think this is a great idea, becuase owning a reptile should encourage individuals to respect their local herps as well as other flora and fauna. Where as some ignorant pet owners are doing just the opposite and destroying this local wildlife. Hopefully this will convey the fact that reptiles aren't just an item you can discard when you don't want it like a piece of trash.

Go Florida.

[tmfleo]

I think this is a great idea in fact it is because of Floridas very open freedoms that I wish I could live there.I just hate the climate.Good for Florida.I wish the rest of the states in this union would follow suit.For those who don't know Florida is probably the state that has the most freedoms when it comes to keeping any pets.

I agree Jay to bad the rest of the states did not do the same.

[Dr Alan]

I think this is a great idea Yes, but it may already be too late for the Glades.I wish the rest of the states in this union would follow suit.Hmmm.... Maybe, but restrictions can go too far and you can end up like Maine, where the majority of reptiles discussed on forums like this are banned. There is a laughable "permitting" process for restricted species, but the issuance of permits is in permanent moratorium. It is not legal in Maine to possess boids, anything rear-fanged, Rhacs with the exception of R ciliatus, GTPs, Blood Pythons, Dumeril's Boas, and a whole host of mostly innocuous reptiles. Florida is too loose, but you've got to be careful what you wish for:( .

[tmfleo]

Good point Dr Alan

[cricketnutz]

finally!!! goddam its about time and you know our pet police (aspca) are so stupid they spend so much time looking at peoples lawns for strays they dont even notice a 15 foot 300 pound snake swollowing a yugo once i was charge 300 dollars becuase my friendly blob of a dog zeus ( dalimation lab mix) got out once for 5 minutes not only is he friendly hes a good dog he would never hurt anyone but mr.aspca thinks ooh hes a dangeruos big goofy dog and apart from that i have a 7 foot unidintifed snake in my backyard a black racer under my shed

[Smashtoad]

You guys are walking on thin ice here, as Doc suggested. You need to remember that these people know almost nothing about herps, and can positively ID very few of them, even native species. If they get into "law passing" mode, the DNR in most states will pass sweeping legislation rather than what it appears Florida has done, which is hard to argue with...huge constrictors loose in the wild is a bad thing.

There was a sting at our local Indy swap several years ago and the DNR confiscated any animal they thought may be illegal or couldn't identify, which was most of them...but this also included dozens of harmless and expensive tricolor snakes, among others, that were perfectly legal. While the sting was being carried out people who had paid admission (with their children) were forced to stand outside the swap building in 90+ degree heat, too...nice.

The animals were given to a local vet to hold until it was all sorted out and she reportedly put them in some kind of tin shed in the middle of the summer...and almost everything died. To my knowledge the owners were not compensated in any way. I can't speak for every state...but in Indiana the DNR is comprised primarily of Microcephalus moroni when it comes to animals...which is weird, don't ya think?

I worked for the Indiana DNR at Raccoon Lake Recreational Area in Rockville, Indiana as a security guard in like 1992. One day I was dropping buoys with the lake's BIOLOGIST and he goes, "Look...a loon." I was like, "No Shiite?" I had never seen a live loon before and was freakin out. I turned, and I still haven't seen a live loon. It was a grebe.

We just need to remember when desiring laws that the people with the power to pass them aren't really that smart and only have the job because the uncle's brother has a best friend whose niece was his mother's hairstylist.

[umop_apisdn]

well, you've got to consider how bad south florida has it now. florida is a very important place for birds, which the pythons can easily take out. just because there are so many people who cannot correctly identify animals, im sure those who actually enforce the "crackdown" will be knowledgeable individuals. they're not going to let just anyone out there tackle a snake that can grow to around 20 feet in length. i think that the state of florida is finally realizing the impact all of these exotics are having on the native flora and fauna, and they've just got to do something about it before it's too late. but, as dr. alan stated, it's probably already too late for the glades.

[Dragonflames81]

I know a few months back here in Ohio they did a sting at the columbus show bc they heard people where bringing venomous there....well they didn't find anythere but their was a guy not far down the road who had them and got busted.

[Smashtoad]

Knowledgeable individuals? You'd think so...but unfortunately you'd be wrong. The Department of Natural Resources does not employ teams of herpetologists. The people enforcing the "crackdown" in Florida, even if it was possible, which it isn't, would be exterminating the giant snakes, not "tackling" them and releasing them somewhere else. You don't need reptile knowledge to swing a machete or a club.

I'm not sure I understand your point. I realize there is nothing they can do in Florida now but pass laws regulating future ownership. I was just relaying my experiences with the Indiana DNR, and it has been laughable at best.

[Dragonflames81]

I'm scared to think of what the future may hold with reptile laws. Will it become so bad that you have people in and out of your home all the time to make sure that you are not owning something illegal? Or that you'll have to be filling all different types of paper work every year showing what you have and how many? I don't really want to think about it but it will probably be a sad reality very soon.

[umop_apisdn]

Knowledgeable individuals? You'd think so...but unfortunately you'd be wrong. The Department of Natural Resources does not employ teams of herpetologists. The people enforcing the "crackdown" in Florida, even if it was possible, which it isn't, would be exterminating the giant snakes, not "tackling" them and releasing them somewhere else. You don't need reptile knowledge to swing a machete or a club.

I'm not sure I understand your point. I realize there is nothing they can do in Florida now but pass laws regulating future ownership. I was just relaying my experiences with the Indiana DNR, and it has been laughable at best.

the fact that you worked for some evidently ignorant people in Indiana's DNR does not properly reflect on other DNR agencies across the US. true, it does not take a knowledgeable individual to swing a machete, but it is obviously a risk to approach an animal of this size. florida is one state that practically has everyday encounters with herps. there are also plenty of endangered animals, and it is every bit as illegal for any average person to swing a machete at any endangered animal as it would be for a DNR employee.

if you're missing my point, legislation and action is required for control. doing nothing only perpetuates the problem, as florida has learned over the past few decades. sitting back and hiding behind the whole "legislation will only snowball from this point on" doesnt cut it for me. if large snakes end up being banned in the state of florida (which im not particularly an advocate of), it was the keepers themselves to blame, they're the ones who brought them in, now it's up to the government to do the dirty work.

[cricketnutz]

well what i heard was a new agency was hired to capture oversized snakes in peticular ball pythons they may be a specized gruop with a catch dont catch list but all i saw was a cramp office and a photo of a pickup and 4 guys trying to pull a enormous snake outta a hollow tree

[umop_apisdn]

as far as i know, ball pythons arent an exotic problem in florida, with the exception of the occasional loose one showing up in a neighbor's yard. the main exotics causing the trouble in south florida are the cuban treefrog, green iguana, brown anole, nile monitor, and the burmese python. oh yea, theres the humans too...

[sciteacher]

well what i heard was a new agency was hired to capture oversized snakes in peticular ball pythons they may be a specized gruop with a catch dont catch list but all i saw was a cramp office and a photo of a pickup and 4 guys trying to pull a enormous snake outta a hollow tree

ball pythons = oversized snakes???

Maybe you meant Burmese pythons? I wouldn't want to run into one of those that had been living in a Florida swamp for a few years:eek:

[Mark Baumann]

Its time for my two cents worth. Having grown up in California I can under stand both sides of this issue. CA is very restrictive in it's laws regarding invasive species. Not that all of them make sense. When Crocodilians were made illegal to own originally the Spectacled Caiman was suppose to be allowed, but Fish & Game decided it would be easier to just ban them all. The same thing happened with the genus Ambystoma. In order to protect the endangered California Tiger Salamander, water dogs( tiger salamander larvae) were to be outlawed. Instead it was decided to ban the whole genus because it is just so darn hard to tell them apart.I do understand that the state was gun shy. Look what they did to the Red-leg Frog. Fish & Game stocked Bullfrogs around the state as a game animal and they can be tied directly into the disappearance of the Red-leg Frog, Western Pond Turtles and Two-stripe Garter Snakes. Fish & Game has tried numerous times to ban the keeping of all herps, native and non-native, but has been thwarted each time. Now I know CA isn't the only state with restrictive laws, Oregon and Arizona also have some laws that don't make alot of sense as does my new home state. Unfortunately these laws are dreamed up because of bone-headed herp keepers. If you want to keep venomous go for it but keep them in an enclosure that is 100% escape proof and please don't free handle it to show off to your friends. Why do we need to take our 12 foot burmese to the bank with us or even to the beach or park. If it is to show off you've got the animal for the wrong reason and shouldn't own it anyway. If you want to show it off have a party and invite your friends. It is the person that got scared by the snake who then reports it to thier friend the city councilman who then drafts an ordinance banning the keeping of "dangerous" reptiles. We have enough problems with PETA and groups like that. What we don't need to be is irresponsible give them for fuel.

[Smashtoad]

I think we are all in agreement here in a big picture sense...irresponsible "shock value" pet owners are making legislation necessary in states where large and venomous herps can survive outdoors. Unfortunately, the agencies that will pass these laws just aren't staffed adequately to police "reasonable" laws...so sweeping legislation is their only option. It really sucks.

We had a guy here in Indy in the 90's that lived in a veritable shack in one of the worst parts of town and had dozens of hot snakes in sweater boxes, wooden boxes, and cracked aquariums. The inside of the guy's house was like something out of a horror movie. But he was an authority on cobras and had extensive knowledge regarding locality data and such (at our herp meetings, he and Dr. Sherman Minton would talk a lot, and Dr. Minton actually visited his house)...but he was very eccentric, and rarely showered.

He had PUFF ADDERS in 1/4" mesh rabbit cages that lined the walkway through the house. I personally witness a friend of mine brush past this cage with her belly touching the mesh. I saw him one night open a wooden foot locker and out came a seven foot egyptian cobra...it was a nightmare. He had green mambas, several species of cantil, gaboons and rhinos...the list goes on. Two kids walked into the shop where I worked one day and asked me if I wanted to buy some snakes...in a gator-aide bottle they had a tiny copperhead and a tiny banded egyptian cobra. I grabbed the kid and asked him where he got them and he said, "From the snakeman." The boys had went into this man's house and put the snakes in the bottle themselves...no shiite. I could talk for hours about this guy...people like him are the biggest threat there is to our hobby.

His story eventually got out and he was forced to leave the state around 2000 and I have no idea where he is now. His case is almost single-handedly responsible for the laws concerning venomous snake ownership in this state.

[Jeffy4321]

sure would hate to see government take away my herp hobby. it boils down to education and resposibility. If everyone would do the right thing we have no issues. lets see what happens across the country hope its for the good of the herp industry and hobby thanks Jeffy

[GeckoFiend]

On a lighter note, who wants to get me some P. grandis from Florida? :D

[umop_apisdn]

ive caught several dozen in the keys in the past. i have several locations which regularly turn out healthy populations, although they took a bit of a hit after hurricane wilma. hopefully ill be getting plans set for a winter trip, although we found many more last summer. we'll have to wait and see how the next trip turns out.

[Brian]

Mark, let's not forget the fish stocking which turns out to hurt all the CA amphibs who haven't encountered fish for a couple million years.

I kind of relized how political things are when they banned glowfish to stop genes from getting out into the fish population. For some reason I don't think glowing fish will be advantagous in normal circumstances.

[Powergeckos]

I have a stupid question - when they find these feral Burmese out in the wild - what do they do with them? Destroy them on the spot?

[JayS]

They give them to Eugene Bassette(Ophiological Services)so he can grow them up,kill them and sell their meat.Just kidding I am just refencing his grand ideas for getting zoned agricultural and farming pythons for meat and skin,like they do for gators.I don't know what they do but I doubt they destroy them...there are too many snakekeepers that are in with the gov. in Fl.Which is good because even after all the publicity,Florida still has the most lenient laws in the U.S. for herpers and exotic animal keepers.

[umop_apisdn]

depends on where you go and who comes across them. when i was cruising the everglades a lil over a year ago and found my first burms out there, we talked to the refuge officers and asked them what they did with them when they found them. they would actually shoot them on site (these were words straight from a refuge officer). then, once all the hub-bub began after the croc/burm story hit, more interest took hold scientifically to find out about the burms. on one of our herping trips we actually met someone in the keys working for the audubon society who said that he knew someone working on them who would want any that we came across. then, we went back to the glades, talked to the refuge officers again, and they informed us of the fact that they were chipping the burms they found to see what kind of range they covered as individuals. supposedly one of the snakes they tracked was a 16 foot resident of mahogany hammock (for those of you unfamiliar with the glades NWR, this is one of the stops on the 40 mile or so strip on your way deep into the refuge). they were no longer killing those they found, instead they asked that reports be given to anyone who worked on the refuge of sightings. now i heard rumor that they're back to killing them. i also heard thru the grapevine that earlier in the year, as farmers tilled one of the many agricultural fields bordering the everglades refuge, they ended up chopping approximately 80 burms in a single field with their tilling machines. the snakes are definitely a threat to the local avifauna, which is perpetuated by the fact that florida is a one of the big stops for many migrating species throughout the year.

so every time i go down there and catch a burm, it's a great thrill, but i also realize that it comes at a great cost. i cant see even politicians allowing someone to possibly farm the burms, seeing as they pose a huge threat to the birds...and the birds were there first.

[Brian]

One one level I wonder if the bird threat is a big deal since they probably encounter boas further south and probably deal with snake predation.

Do they have preditors though? I'd think that alligators might find them yummy. Maybe more so then the otherway around since unlike anacondas I thought these weren't aquatic so much.

[umop_apisdn]

well, the gators can snack on them, however it really goes both ways. for the smaller pythons, there are definitely more possible predators, but once you get to the big ones, theres not much to hold them back other than cars or really big gators willing to duke it out with them. and yes, the bird threat is a big deal...while im not an ornithologist or a birder in the least, i know there must be some imperiled species calling south florida their home.

[Jeffy4321]

Check out this photo I seen it one day and alls i could say was "wow"