New morph

[rhaco]

Look at this:
http://pangeareptile.com/newmorph.htm

Greetings, rhaco

[Gecko Brothel]

I would love one like that! :)
Betty

[CDN-Cresties]

Same here, I would love to have something like that! Thanks for posting the link, I suggested a name :)

[AnthonyCaponetto]

That gecko is great looking and has potential, but I'm not sure I'd call it a "new" morph when it hasn't even begun to show its adult coloration, let alone been bred to start figuring out the genetic basis. For all anyone knows, it could just be a combination of two or more existing traits (looks like tiger x fire to me.).

[Manx420o1]

I agree with Anthony...it does have a cool looking pattern but ive seen similar looking cresteds, and lets not forget the fact that cresteds ARE poly-morphic.

[AnthonyCaponetto]

The more I look at it, I don't think it's even got the tiger trait. It looks like a harlequin with more light colored pattern than dark...a "reverse" harlequin if you will.

As for color, I'd bet the back stays that color and that the light color on the rest of the gecko turns orange.

Again, I think that gecko is awesome, but I don't think it's really anything new...not genetically anyway.

[Matthew Parks]

Uh Oh controversy. LOL. No, I understand what you guys are saying and yes the coloration could change. I have hatched several babies patterned this way to some degree and the one I posted is by far the best example. I do know that this trait (pattern) is reproduceable and I just simply want a name to call it. I thought it would be nice to get peoples suggestions as to what they think we should call it too.

So that being said, this is a trait I plan to refine and work with. I have spoken in some detail to GECKOS BY BRAD about this trait and he too, produces similarly patterned animals.

I'm sure hundreds or thousands of "new morphs" are hatched every year. I believe it just takes someone with the patience and determination to refine the traits until they start to breed true.

[nycherper]

Will you wait till you've proven this trait to begin to sell them? If so, how much would they cost in the long run if proven genetic?

[Matthew Parks]

We probably won't have any for sale for quite sometime and then the price will depend on the market at the time and the demand for that morph.

[KidCrazee82]

I've seen a lot of "new morphs" such as the one pictured, the marble and some others. Have any of these "new morphs" been proven? Or have they just been labeled new and sold at higher prices?

[Matthew Parks]

As far as what other breeders are doing, I'm not sure. The one we are working with is 1-2 years away from being made available to the public. I'm not trying to create novelty out of thin air just to inflate my prices, but I am selecting my projects based on animals that show complete uniqueness and potential for breeding. I am in this for the long haul if you will, not to make a quick buck at the expense of some poor misinformed individual who doesn't know any better. We are working on a page for my website that will explain our projects and our goals in great detail. Hopefully that will clear up any confusion about the "new morph".

Well I hope I answered you question, and I know I got a little long winded. But if you or anyone else has any questions, comments, or suggestions, I'm happy to answer them as best as I can.

:D

[nycherper]

Whats distinguishing this new morph? Are the geckos you've produced similar to this one that same color? or different color but same pattern?

[AnthonyCaponetto]

I've seen a lot of "new morphs" such as the one pictured, the marble and some others. Have any of these "new morphs" been proven? Or have they just been labeled new and sold at higher prices?

My marble line is proven. I produced about 4-5 of them this year and none have been put up for sale.

[nycherper]

Anthony i've never really seen the difference between marbles and dalmations? Can you please clear that up?

[AnthonyCaponetto]

Uh Oh controversy. LOL. No, I understand what you guys are saying and yes the coloration could change. I have hatched several babies patterned this way to some degree and the one I posted is by far the best example. I do know that this trait (pattern) is reproduceable and I just simply want a name to call it. I thought it would be nice to get peoples suggestions as to what they think we should call it too.

So that being said, this is a trait I plan to refine and work with. I have spoken in some detail to GECKOS BY BRAD about this trait and he too, produces similarly patterned animals.

I'm sure hundreds or thousands of "new morphs" are hatched every year. I believe it just takes someone with the patience and determination to refine the traits until they start to breed true.

As small as that gecko is, I'm sure the color will change...no doubt in my mind. That's not a bad thing by any means, though, as it will likely be a brightly colored gecko.

If the pattern is what makes you call it a new morph, what is it about it that's genetically different from a harlequin? It's got a fire pattern with mottled limbs and color coming up the sides. Of course, there's more light pattern than dark, but considering there are a number of those already out there, I don't think that makes it anything new...just an extreme example of an already existing morph.

[AnthonyCaponetto]

Anthony i've never really seen the difference between marbles and dalmations? Can you please clear that up?

The dalmatian spots on them have absolutely nothing to do with the marble look...they just happen to be there. I'm not trying to be rude, but you apparently haven't read or looked at the photos very carefully.

Here's a link to the page about them on my website...

http://www.acreptiles.com/geckos_crested_pedigree_marble.htm

With my Marble line, it's basically a spinoff of the fire/harlequin trait. The difference is that the pattern on the back and the pattern on the sides overlap or intertwine with eachother and when they're full grown, it's nearly impossible to differentiate the fire pattern on their back from the mottling on their sides.

At first I thought it was just a fluke variation, but after seeing half of her offspring start showing the same overlapping of pattern and color, I can't help but believe that there's something genetic going on with them.

Marble...
http://www.acreptiles.com/geckos/Crested_BP_Female_April04.jpg

Marble sibling (just a Fire)
http://www.acreptiles.com/geckos/cresteds_August04/BP_Male_082004.jpg

[Matthew Parks]

As small as that gecko is, I'm sure the color will change...no doubt in my mind. That's not a bad thing by any means, though, as it will likely be a brightly colored gecko.

If the pattern is what makes you call it a new morph, what is it about it that's genetically different from a harlequin? It's got a fire pattern with mottled limbs and color coming up the sides. Of course, there's more light pattern than dark, but considering there are a number of those already out there, I don't think that makes it anything new...just an extreme example of an already existing morph.

Well, we do know that this trait is reproduceable as we have produced several and so have many other breeders. So therefore we know this trait is buried somewhere in the genetic soup of the Crested Geckos we breed (and not just us but many others). Nobody has satisfactorily performed the experiments necessary to determine what traits are dominant, co dominant, recessive, or independant on any morph. All anyone can say is that this one is phenotypically different from most Crested Geckos. We do know that selective breeding, over multiple generations, has brought out the desired characteristics. So I am not claiming to be the first or only person to produce a gecko like this, but simply that we have produced them, so have others, and we are going to keep selectively breeding for this pattern trait. Coloration varies between the ones we have produced and will come into play as a natural side dish ie. dark "harlequin" red "harlequin" etc. I have heard that you produced some stunning animals that you called reverse harlequins and subsequently sold them and I was told they kind of resembled the one I have posted on my site. I think the potential is there and if you would like to trade any blood, I'd surely trade or buy anything you produce that is similar.

[Matthew Parks]

Whats distinguishing this new morph? Are the geckos you've produced similar to this one that same color? or different color but same pattern?

Mainly what distinguishes this gecko is it's unusual pattern. That is the trait that is most important for us to selectively breed for at first. Color will come second, and the potential for color is unlimited given enough generations of breeding. I can imagine that gecko with all different colorations and even more refined pattern, it's just a matter of taking the time and effort to get from point A (I like how this gecko looks) to point B (consistently producing offspring that look similar to original gecko).

[Website Feeds]

A morph is a morph.. of course... of course..... a morph is a morph of course....
What's in a name..... how about if we just call them pretty geckos and try and reproduce them and sell them because they look cool, and not because they are named something different.... If you like it.... breed it..... call it what you want.. there is now way to keep people from arguing about what morph something is, or why they named it what they did....
The real issue is determining what the different traits are, how they are linked to each other, and how they are carried..... Right now, cresteds are so young to the hobby that we have YEARS ahead of us just sorting out these traits.....and in my opinion, that is what is so attractive about cresteds... If we knew exactly what we got when we bred two types together, it would be pretty boring if you ask me....
Trying to figure out how a new trait is born, and how to reproduce it is quite a challenge, and what puts us all in such great positions with our geckos....

Just my two cents....

Rodney

[AnthonyCaponetto]

Matthew,

In my opinion, a morph is a specific trait that causes a specific color or pattern...not a combination or a more extreme version of something that already exists. From what I can tell, I think that you've got an extreme version of the harlequin pattern with your gecko. That's just from looking at the gecko, though. You know better than I do as far as what that line produces. If they produce some harlequins that just aren't so extreme, then I don't think you really have anything new there. However, if the geckos with that trait always look that way (way more light pattern than dark), then I'd say you may have identified a gene for that look.

I agree with "Rodney King" (even though he apparently doesn't understand that this is just a good, healthy debate and not a fight. lol) in that names shouldn't matter. They get blown way out of proportion by people who have little to no understanding of phenotypes and the genetics behind them. Howver, if and when a previously unidentified gene crops up, I think we as breeders need to make note of them. It all boils down to differentiating between the natural variations and combinations of the traits we already know of and any new genetic traits (mutations if you will). I think that a vast majority of Crested keepers don't understand the difference between variation and mutations and that (in my opinion) is why there's so much confusion.

[Matthew Parks]

First let me just say that this is just a friendly back and forth discussion/debate. Anthony and I are just kicking back and forth ideas and slightly different opinions.

I agree with Rodney King that part of the fun is the unpredictability of working with cresteds and yes if you like it breed it and call it what you want......Absolutely.

However, one of the biggest challenges we face is figuring out the highly variable and so far unpredictable genetics behind crested gecko traits.

[Matthew Parks]

Before I hit the hay I should probably clear up for people what my interpretation of a morph is. According to Repashy, DeVosjoli, and Fast, the first geckos brought into the U.S. were normals, white fringed, and tigers. All of the "morphs" you see today descended from these original animals through selective breeding. Since nobody claims to have figured out the underlying genetics behind any of the morphs (the genotype) all of the morphs have been "created" through selective breeding based on phenotype (how the genes are expressed in the geckos appearance). So a morph is created through selective breeding as proven by Kevin Dunne at Dragon's Den with his Reds, by Repashy with his Pinstripes, Me with Super Dalmations, and Anthony with Marbles and so on.

O.K now I feel like I have explained myself on this one well enough for today. :)

[AnthonyCaponetto]

Matthew,

I guess selective breeding for existing traits vs. truly new genetic mutations is where I think most people fail to see the difference. I don't consider something new if it's just a refined or better version of something that already existed. For example, a partial pinstripe and a full pinstripe are not two different morphs...the full pinstripe is simply a refined version of the partial pinstripe. Same goes for your super dalmatians...they're simply selectively bred for more dalmatian spots, which are seen on many geckos.

As for the marble line I have, I did nothing special with them in terms of selective breeding. I just got lucky when I got the female as a baby. They are what they are and they don't really vary like dalmatians, pinstripes, certain color morphs, etc.

Anyway, I think there's a lot more to be seen with ciliatus and I agree that it's a big part of their appeal. :)

[Matthew Parks]

Yes my Super Dalmatians are just refined regular Dalmatians just like Creamsicles are a just an extremely refined Fire Morph and Pinstripes are a refined Fire/White Fringe. All new morphs (so far) descend from already existing morphs.

[KidCrazee82]

Ahh the great debate on morphs, coming soon to EVERY forum near you. And since we are on the topic, Anthony what do you suspect this juvie to turn into as it gets older? The parents are my dalamtion and my orange/yellow seen here http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=201304&user=62296 and here http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.php?photo=198919&user=62296

Out of the six that have hatched from these two, only one does not have similar pattern to this one...side pattern is connected to back pattern, and the side pattern is intensifying(SP?) to the same color as the back pattern more and more everyday...(I know it's not marbled but I haven't seen this and am really curious.) Thanks. -Joe
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/62296HPIM2497.JPG

[AnthonyCaponetto]

Joe,

You should start another thread with something this far off the topic at hand. Looks like a Tiger to me, though.

-Anthony

[KidCrazee82]

Sorry bout that, and thanks I wasn't sure.

[KidCrazee82]

Well now I am sure of one thing, it is not a tiger. I was browsing your website to see what your tigers look like, and not one did I see the side and back pattern connected. I do have some tiger/flames from the same parents, and the tiger pattern is apparent, not so much in the one I posted but uhh..thanks anyway?

[AnthonyCaponetto]

Oh no...not this again. What we call "tigers" can vary quite a bit and I think there may be a total of three of them pictured on my website.

I don't mean this to sound gruff, but I'm also not good at sugar coating things (big surprise) so please don't take it that way. You have every right to disagree with the way I would discribe your gecko, but telling me where I got it wrong isn't going to change my opinion of what I'd call your gecko.

What you call your gecko has no baring whatsoever on the value, appearance or genetic potential of the animal. It kind of baffles me how people stress out about what "morph" their gecko should officially be called, when the reality of it is that it doesn't matter. Unless you're talking about genetically proven trait or a known quality bloodline (i.e. "Bob's orange harlequin line" or whatever), the names don't mean much. Crested Geckos vary in appearance and genetics dramatically and as such, the "morph" names are only supposed to be used to help describe the basic physical characteristics of a gecko, not to pigeon hole the gecko as being one certain thing.

I really can't devote anymore time to this subject, but hopefully that kind of explains all this.

Bottom line, enjoy your geckos and have fun learning about them...and don't worry about what to call it. We have cameras for that kind of thing. :)

[KidCrazee82]

I agree with you about the morph argument, it happens on every forum. The reason I am asking is because I have my animals in a classified, and people ask what morph they are. I am not telling them anything about this one or the others like it because I did not know what to call it. Since you gave your advice and this explanation, I will tell them it's a nice tiger. I definitely do not want another morph argument and I didn't mean it that way, I had enough fun with the creamsicle one. ;)